Imposter syndrome can quietly undermine even the most accomplished L&D professionals, causing self-doubt, hesitation and stress in day-to-day work. But what does it really look like in training and development, and how can professionals overcome it to lead with confidence?
In this episode of The Business of Learning, we spoke with Loren Sanders, CPTM and vice president of learning strategy and consulting at WeLearn Learning Services, and Ruth Phillips, training and education senior specialist at Higginbotham, to explore practical strategies for recognizing and overcoming imposter syndrome.
Tune in now for insights on:
- How imposter syndrome can show up in L&D professionals’ daily work
- Mindset shifts and practical strategies to manage self-doubt
- Advice for learning leaders to reframe pressure and move forward with confidence
More Resources:
- [Article] Leading While Doubting: Turning Impostor Syndrome Into Influence
- [Article] Feeling Like a Fraud? You’re Not Alone
- [Course] Training Industry Senior Leaders Program
The Training Industry Senior Leaders Program equips you with the skills you need to lead at the enterprise level. Download the program brochure to learn more:
The transcript for this episode follows:
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Michelle Eggleston Schwartz: Hi! Welcome back to The Business of Learning. I’m Michelle Eggleston Schwartz, editor in chief here at Training Industry.
Sarah Gallo: And I am Sarah Gallo, a senior editor. Today we’re diving into a topic that’s surprisingly common in the L&D world, but often not talked about enough: imposter syndrome. Many learning professionals experience feelings of self-doubt, feeling like you’re not doing or achieving enough even when you’ve proven your skills and expertise. So to learn more about this challenge and how to navigate it, we are joined by Loren Sanders, a Certified Professional in Training Management and vice president of learning strategy and consulting at WeLearn Learning Services, and by Ruth Phillips, a training and education senior specialist at Higginbotham. So Loren and Ruth, welcome.
Michelle Egglerston Schwartz: Yes. Welcome. Thank you so much for joining us today. To kind of kick things off and get things started, how do you define imposter syndrome and how might it show up in an L&D professional’s day to day work?
Loren Sanders: I am happy to take this one first, if that works. I really look at imposter cinema as a pattern of thoughts where very capable people are not trusting the evidence of their own effectiveness, and the way that it shows up in L&D professionals more behaviorally than emotionally. So we don’t always hear people. Talking about it or saying that they feel it, but we see it in overpreparing or rewriting something 10 times before we feel like it’s good enough to put in front of a stakeholder working 60, 70, 80 hours a week. And then there’s an added pressure to kind of justify your role constantly because we live in. Total complexity all the time. You’re accountable for capability. A lot of times you’re accountable for culture, you’re accountable for performance, but a lot of times accountable for things that you have zero control of, and that kind of ambiguity can really sharpen your awareness. And sometimes that awareness can itself as doubt in our psyche.
Ruth Phillips: Yeah, absolutely. I think I always tell people imposter syndrome is that voice in the back of your head that tells you that you’re not smart enough or good enough, like you don’t know what you’re doing. And I see a lot of trainers and educators experience that by saying, why’d they pick me to teach this class or lead this class? There’s a hundred other people smarter in this room and they are more than capable of doing it. But they have those self-doubts that they just picked me because they needed to fill a spot at the table or. many other excuses when they picked you because you are the person to do the job. You’re smart, you’re capable. But sometimes we doubt ourselves so much that we don’t think we are that person.
Loren Sanders: I love that you brought that up because when that thought shows up in you, it creates a certain type of behavior, right? We’re behavior people we’re performance people. So think about the behavior that it creates on you when you have those feelings, and if it’s making you prepare and clarify and think clearly. You now to think about those as leadership strengths.
Sarah Gallo: I love that reframe.
Ruth Phillips: It’s really important, if we’re able to recognize when we have those feelings and turn them into positive I know, and, and it shows up at weird times and I can even see myself doing that and I’m like, okay, that’s the crazy voice in my head and I know it’s crazy. me deal with it instead of reacting crazily with it.Crazily, is that a word? I don’t think that’s a word, but I don’t want to spin out of control because of that voice. I can listen to it. I can hear it, but I want to shut it down and be like, no, you know, I got this. I’m prepared. I’ve done my homework. I’m good to go.
Loren Sanders: I find it helps too if you name that voice. I have a client that calls hers Penelope, and she’ll be like “Oh, shut up, Penelope.” And it seems to really help.
Ruth Phillips: I love that. Yeah. I, um, my boss knows that I struggle with imposter syndrome a lot, and I’m like, okay, this is crazy. Me talking now and I know I’m crazy. Just remind me that I am not, and she laughs at me and, and she doesn’t like, oh no, you’re, you got this. She’s like, she gives me facts. She reminds me to go back and look at those facts about why I’m doing what I’m doing. And that really helps too.
Sarah Gallo: Yeah. Kind of piggybacking off of that, I’d love to hear more about both of your own experiences with imposter syndrome. Well Ruth, you’ve mentioned that you’ve experienced this, but kind of what that’s looked like for you? Have you experienced it maybe at different career points, and if so, how did it really show up?
Ruth Phillips: I think so when I first started at my job at Higginbotham, they brought me on as a training and education person. So I’m teaching insurance to people and in my mind, they didn’t bring me to teach. They brought me to find a subject matter expert to teach and. My boss sat me down and he’s like, what are you doing? You are here because I want you teaching. I don’t want you finding somebody else. I hired you for your skills. And it really brought it home. And even though I’ve been doing this for several years, we’re expanding our team and we’re hiring someone new. Right? That’s, that’s great. We’re doing great at our job and everything’s going good. But you know, that voice, that crazy voice is like, they’re looking for someone to replace me. I’m not good enough and I’m being replaced, and I have to interview the person that’s going to replace me. Absolutely insanely crazy. And you just have to stop and pause and be like, is that right? Is that reality as it is, or is it my mind going nuts and it’s absolutely my mind going nuts.
Loren Sanders: For me, I can say it’s tied to every major transition I’ve ever had. There’s always that moment where each new level resets your confidence temporarily; more responsibility might increase. Your reflection and knowing that that’s part of leadership growth is really important. Otherwise, it can get you stuck in a spiral. But early on, for me, it looked very much like overpreparing because I needed to be sure of every single thing, mid-career. It kind of shifted to feeling pressure. I needed to have the perfect answer before I could respond. It looked like me being kind of quiet I knew the words that I was going to say had impact, and then as your visibility grows, it starts to quiet down and it feels a little bit more like you’re carrying responsibility versus skills that you do or don’t have, and your confidence, more or less lags behind your growth until your results catch up. So it’s feeling like you’re always running a race. And the first time I really noticed this was my pattern was I was in a training class where one of the things we had to do was put together a puzzle. And I am not a puzzle person. I looked at the puzzle pieces and went, oh my goodness, I have no idea what I’m doing. I’m out. That was my first response. Like, no, I can’t do this. I can’t do this. After we were debriefing and the facilitator said, “How does this show up, your first response? How does it show up in your life?” And I thought, oh my goodness. My first approach to everything new is, oh my gosh, I have no idea how to do this. And what helped me through that was starting to track my outcomes instead of my emotions. Once I could see the patterns of my impact, I was able to replace some of that feeling of uncertainty with the facts of what I was, what I’m able to do. I also recognize that when I’m faced with something new, I am someone that needs to pause, take a step back and look at the whole picture I respond to something. But knowing that about myself has been very helpful.
Ruth Phillips: I love that you’re talking about over preparing. ’cause I think when I first started teaching and, and doing training sessions, I was in a class one time and somebody asked me a question. clue what to say. Had no answer, and I just kind of made a joke and went on. But after that, every single class I’m, I brainstorm what questions could they possibly ask me. And so I had like a whole other notebook of questions and answers. Like, that’s not realistic or good way to manage my time. But I remember doing that and I’ve talked to other people who felt the same way instead of just having that. That confidence to say, I don’t know. Let me find out and get back to you because you feel like you have to be absolutely perfect and on your game all the time. it’s a weakness if you admit that you don’t know something. Because then that voice is like, “I told you so; I told you you didn’t know that. Why are you even doing this?” when that’s not the case. I think the biggest facilitator or trainer unlock is when you don’t know and somebody tells you at some point in your career that you can just turn it over to the room and say, what do you all think about that?
Ruth Phillips: I love that, and it’s a huge unlock. It’s like, these are the secrets that you don’t learn in a class or a set setting somewhere, right? You hear that from somebody you admire and they’re like, just do this. I also love about how you said you journal, you kept a list of your outcomes. I have a, a file, like a diary of all the good things that happened. I’m like, I did this. I saw the light, light bulb moment in season today and, and that is a good thing that makes me realize how capable and how much I’ve grown.
Loren Sanders: Another piece of that is not having to be the first to respond once you do know the answers, so giving the space for the people in the room so you’re, you realize that you have the answers, but you don’t have to respond first.
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Michelle Eggleston Schwartz: I’d love to talk a little bit more about when you are in these moments of imposter syndrome and having those doubts, could you share some strategies or mindset shifts that you’ve personally used to kind of help you overcome those moments?
Loren Sanders: I think for me, I stopped trying to get rid of my doubts and started listening to them. To see what they were telling me about myself and the things that I value. I think when we’re tapped in to what value it’s attacking in us, it can sometimes give us a lot more information I use an internal sequence. Which full disclosure, I’m writing a book about imposter syndrome. So, I’m calling it “The Rise Shift,” and it is recognize when your thinking has moved from problem solving into rumination. Because until we recognize that that’s happening, it’s really hard to do anything about it. Interpret the story that you’re telling yourself because we’re really, really good at making up things that we think other people are thinking, and we do it on a regular basis. And when we get in front of a large group of people, we’re always like, what are these people thinking of me right now? then shifting to that more accurate evidence based view of yourself and those outcomes that you took stock of, I’ll call them your receipts. So keep receipts for those great things that you’re doing so you know when you have a doubt. And then experiment with the kinds of visible, visible actions that you have done or that you can take, and that keeps you moving forward, even though uncertainty is present.
Ruth Phillips: Those are all, that’s amazing. I love that. I can’t wait for your book to come out. I think. It’s so important for me when I see myself having these doubts. The number one thing is I talk about it a lot, I told my manager, I told my team, I’m like, this is something that I see in the industry. I see people having this, and I will admit that this is something that I struggle with sometimes. So everybody’s on the same page, so my manager knows. If I go to her and say, I know this is crazy, and I know this is not true, help me work it through it. She knows where that background is coming from. I think a lot of people in the learning and development world don’t talk about it because if they talk about it, is it a weakness? Are they admitting that maybe, maybe those doubts are true, maybe they’re not, but let’s just not talk about it. Let’s just shove it under the bed. That’s also how I clean my house. But you know, whatever, I talk about it and I let people know and I do have a folder of wins. I think that’s really important. I also keep every single certificate I’ve ever earned, and when I’m feeling like I’m not qualified, I just kind of flip through it and be like, “Oh, I did this and I did this, and I did this.” It lifts me up.
Loren Sanders: Those are your receipts, and that’s really good. I think it’s also important to note that confidence. Typically follows action, not the other way around. So a lot of times we think we have to do all these actions before we feel confident, but a lot of times it doesn’t come first. You do the thing and then you’re like, oh, that wasn’t so bad. Okay, now I’m confident that I can do this. So when we think about imposter syndrome and how we feel or where we don’t feel ready or don’t feel right, your response to that doubt matters so much more than the actual doubt itself.
Ruth Phillips: Oh, absolutely. I think like I’m lucky I can talk with it about it with people at work, but if you can’t. If you belong to a professional association or you have a cheerleader, or you are in a group on LinkedIn, there are people out there that you could share those thoughts with and get suggestions on how to deal [with them]. And I think that’s important too, because I think it thrives in silence if you’re not talking about it, if you’re not addressing it, it’s just like any other fear, right? If you don’t address it, it’s just going to get worse, and we don’t want that to happen.
Sarah Gallo: I kind of want to touch on one nuance here, which is there’s sort of this very real pressure that many L&D leaders kind of are feeling to justify their role or impact, especially during times of economic shifts or uncertainty. Hearing about layoffs and budget cuts that can create this very real pressure. And how does that sort of feed into imposter syndrome? Are there any ways that L&D leaders can reframe or respond to this pressure in a healthier way?
Ruth Phillips: For me, it’s not about showing… So I’m in insurance and I am not about showing how my training increases sales. I am about twisting that framework, that narrative, and showing how my training saves us money in E&O claims, error and omission claims. How the training does this and this is why it’s important. So I think once I realized that shift, how I kind of reframed the ROI, it made more sense for me. So I felt more comfortable explaining why my role was important. I don’t know if every industry can do that, but I think you have to find a way to make it comfortable for you so you feel good about talking about it. Because if you’re … I’m not a numbers person, I don’t get numbers. I get feelings, but I don’t get numbers. So if you’re not a numbers person, you have to find some way that you can explain it and feel confident because if you don’t feel confident, it’s not going to go over.
Loren Sanders: I always joke that in learning, nobody told me there’d be math. So when we think that measurement or proving value has to do with values that are numerical, it’s sometimes scary. And that constant scrutiny can turn into internal scrutiny where you ruminate on things. when you’re constantly and repeatedly asked to prove your value, it’s easy to start questioning your value. It’s easy to start questioning your work, , because when learning’s working well, who gets the credit? It’s not you, it’s the business. The business is doing a great job. When learning isn’t going well, the attention comes to you, which then creates some chronic pressure for the L&D person. And a rule’s legitimacy is regularly evaluated, people in that role. Internalize that evaluation and it starts to shape their identity. And if you think about L&D and L&D leaders, we operate in high accountability systems with shared attributions, and you’re asked to show ROI across human systems that you have no control over. And that environment creates ongoing tension. Even though we are not in the business of measuring the effectiveness of people, that’s my favorite thing to say. We don’t measure people. We measure programs. We measure the effectiveness of programs. That measuring the effectiveness of people is a frontline leader’s job. We can help set them up for success, but I think it’s really important that we shift our language. when we’re talking about this to outcomes that are observable. So what was the behavior change? What was the quality of the decision making? How did we grow a capability? How did the performance shift? Because all of that the stuff that grounds your work and the evidence you’re doing and that it works and that it matters.
Michelle Eggleston Schwartz: Definitely being in that role where you’re constantly having to prove your value, show that evidence can create a lot of doubt in imposter syndrome for sure. I’d like to dig in and explore the role of organizational culture, in either reinforcing or reducing imposter syndrome for learning leaders.
Loren Sanders: This is something that I feel really strongly about. Actually today I posted something about how if you’re a carrot and stick type of leader, you should think about whether you’re managing animals or people. Because it really does matter. Culture shapes how safe people feel when they aren’t certain about stuff. And I’ve seen people thrive in environments where questions were welcomed and feedback flows both ways. Good feedback loops. I can’t say enough good things about, when people are free to admit that they don’t really know something or they still have something to learn and it doesn’t feel punitive, there’s a lot more opportunity for people to grow in and thrive. But if you have an environment where expectations are really unclear and things are pivoting, the leader wanted it this way. Now, the leader wanted it that way. And we know in learning this happens a lot, especially with your stakeholders. Well, that’s not what they wanted. They didn’t know what they wanted until they saw what they didn’t want, some of that inconsistency then that leads to never really getting recognition, which people sometimes need to do the work well and comparison. Well, Mary didn’t do it that way, and you know, Mary was always our learning person and she just did whatever we told her to. And you can’t say, well, Mary was an order taker, because that’s not going to go over well. But where we have environments where we can make our contribution more visible. Partner in a way that sets up that frontline leader for success, we will be able to feel less impost and thrive more as a culture. But part of that is really clarifying expectations, recognizing contributions and building partnerships that feel more like a handshake than a hand off most of our environments.
Ruth Phillips: Absolutely. You have to have a space where you work that you feel safe to ask questions, to say, I know this is how we’ve always done it, but what if we try it this way? I think a lot of organizations love to say they have a culture learning, but they really don’t. Right? They just slap that label on there and keep going. But if you have a true culture of learning, we know that sometimes. We don’t succeed at the first time, and that’s not a bad thing. We, didn’t fail. We got experience. We learned a way that didn’t work, you have to be somewhere that appreciates that and lets you grow. If you don’t have room to grow as a learning leader, you’re… it’s not good, right? You’re like, Mary, who becomes the order taker and just does whatever. We want to be able to grow, but we’ve got to grow in a safe space where we get that encouragement, where we get that feedback, where we get like, good job, you did this.
Loren Sanders: That’s so important. I think it’s really important for us to recognize that clear signals help people trust the place that they are and for our people who are searching for jobs right now, and there’s a lot of them out there, somebody is telling you, well, we have a really good learning culture here. coach in me wants to push you to ask the question, can you explain what learning culture means in this organization? It’ll probably open up a lot more conversation. And remember that goes both ways. It’s not just them wanting you, it’s you wanting to work in an environment where your skills are valued and you can grow and develop.
Sarah Gallo: A hundred percent. We’ve covered so much ground today, and I’d love if we could, um, close things off by offering some tangible advice for l and d professionals who are sort of stuck in this cycle of self-doubt. Do you have any advice or tips for people in that position and really how they can move forward with more confidence?
Ruth Phillips: I think the number one tip for me that I would give anybody find a person. Find someone you can talk to has been so successful for me. Find a cheerleader, someone who has your back, and they can, they can give you the good and the bad, right? Maybe your concerns are valid, maybe they’re not, but they can help you separate the two. I journal. I journal a lot, so writing it down, my wins, even if they’re small, a win is a win. And that really helps me. Those are my two big takeaways.
Loren Sanders: I will say yes. And keep in mind from a systems point of view, that l and d is a field that changes really quickly, but it also stays the same lot. So there’s a lot going on, right? We’ve got AI, which is changing a lot of things, and then we have changes that change things. But this basic backbone of L&D hasn’t changed a lot in a very long time. Uncertainty is part of our role, but how you interpret it really shapes how you function and how you lead. So I’m going to challenge everybody listening to treat their initial thought as information first, and I’ll give you kind of three things that will be helpful. The first thing is when you have that imposter thought, I want you to tell yourself, I’m having imposter thoughts, not I am an imposter. Don’t attach that thought to who you are as a human being because that’s not going to help you or anybody else. It can send you quickly into a spiral. The second one is. Keep that record of your outcomes, even keep records of the things that you influenced. Today, I had a really good meeting where I influenced this stakeholder to change the way they were doing things because I knew it was better for the performance of the team. And then the third one is I want you to consider taking action before you feel like you’re ready to again, confidence sometimes comes after you take that action, and if you take that action. might be an opportunity for you to sigh a sigh of relief and recognize how great you are.
Michelle Eggleston Schwartz: Well, that’s a great note to end on. Loren and Ruth, thank you so much for joining us today. How can our listeners get in touch with you after the episode if they’d like to reach out?
Ruth Phillips: Reach out to me on LinkedIn I love connections. I love messages. I’m always on LinkedIn posting about and development, training, insurance, my cats. So reach out, connect with me. I’d love to talk more.
Loren Sanders: I’ll say the same. You can reach out to me through LinkedIn. You can reach out to me through the Wheel Learn website. If you’re somebody that likes reflections, I pretty much post something related to leadership with a reflection on a daily basis.
Sarah Gallo: Awesome. Well, for more resources on this topic, check out the episode description or visit the show notes on our website at trainingindustry.com/podcast, and make sure to subscribe for more timely episodes like this one. Until next time.
