Moving into higher-level or executive positions in learning and development (L&D) requires strategic thinking, business alignment and a clear understanding of what senior L&D roles truly entail. From building the right competencies to navigating common career roadblocks, L&D professionals need a roadmap for stepping into roles like chief learning officer (CLO) or vice president of learning.

In this episode of The Business of Learning, we spoke with Amy DuVernet, Ph.D., CPTM, vice president of learning products at Training Industry, to explore what it takes to grow your L&D career into executive leadership.

Tune in now to hear insights on:

• Key higher-level L&D job titles to know
• The core skills and competencies required to step into executive positions
• The role certifications and professional development programs can play in career advancement
• Common roadblocks L&D professionals face when pursuing higher-level roles — and how to overcome them

More Resources:

• [Program] Training Industry Senior Leaders Program
• [Article] How to Advocate for a CLO Role in Your Organization
• [Wiki] Chief Learning Officer (CLO) Job Description

Want to gain the mindset, tools and network to rise to the C-suite? Learn more about the Training Industry Senior Leaders Program below.

The transcript for this episode follows:

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Sarah Gallo: Hi. Welcome back to The Business of Learning. I’m Sarah Gallo, a senior editor here at Training Industry.

Michelle Eggleston Schwartz: And I’m Michelle Eggleston Schwartz. We’re talking about career growth and learning and development. Specifically looking at what it takes to advance into executive level roles, key skills to develop and how to navigate common roadblocks along the way. With us, we have Dr. Amy DuVernet, a certified professional in training management and vice president of learning products at Training Industry. Thank you for joining us today.

Sarah Gallo: Yes. Thanks for being here, Amy. It’s always great having you on the podcast. To get started, when it comes to career growth in L&D, are there any sort of higher-level executive job titles that learning professionals should be aware of? And how do those roles typically differ from positions like training manager or L&D specialist?

Amy DuVernet: That’s a great question. Um, I’ll say titles can be really tricky, right? Because, uh, different titles can mean the same thing, and the same title can look really different depending on where you work, what industry you’re in, the size of your company, a number of different factors. So I always encourage L&D professionals to not get too attached to the title, but instead to focus on the actual scope of the work. So what are your job responsibilities? Um, what’s your decision-making authority?  And also where does this role sit within the organization? So where is it kind of in the organizational chart, but also what function are you kind of within?

That said, I will say that we do a ton of research here at Training Industry on L&D careers. It’s really important to us to understand the career paths of our audience so that we can make sure that we are providing the right kinds of programming. In that research we do see some common patterns in terms of, uh, what makes up those higher level or executive job roles and what kinds of  titles those  folks have that really align to those. So, uh, director or senior director of learning development training or talent development could be a title to consider as well as, uh, head of L&D. Head of training can often align with those executive level responsibilities. And then some of those titles that you would really think of traditionally like vice president of learning, chief learning officer, or even chief talent officer.

Now one thing to think about when you’re looking at those roles is that some of them are very specifically focused on corporate learning and development whereas others are going to have more of a broader talent scope. So they might  be focused on learning and development and succession,  or performance management, or even the employee experience. And then you might also reach that executive level, but be more specialized. There are job roles that are really specifically focused on leadership development or sales enablement. Um, so again, really important when you are thinking about where your career path is headed and you’re thinking about the kinds of job titles that are available and that you think about what that mandate of that role is.

And really consider how much influence and reach that role has within the organization, how closely tied it is to driving business strategy and outcomes, because that’s really going to be what defines that executive level role.

Michelle Eggleston Schwartz: Love that. Because job titles definitely do not share like the full scope of a role. So relying solely on those job titles as an indicator of skillset is not always it’s not always wise.

For L&D professionals who are kind of looking to move into those executive level positions like a CLO or Vice President of Learning, what key skills or competencies should they look to develop?

Amy DuVernet: Yeah. I  love this question because the skills that you need at this executive level really do look different than they do at the manager level. And certainly, they build on those manager level roles. So if you’ve had a foundation in training management, you’ve got a really good kind of basis, but the skills that you need expand into more broader business leadership kinds of focus. And um, we’ve actually been developing a senior L&D leader competency model here at Training Industry to clarify exactly kind of that distinction.

So at this level, strategic alignment looks a lot more like business alignment. You’re not just thinking about aligning your learning programs to  business priorities, but you’re also really trying to understand how the business operates. Um, really important that you’re able to forecast the needs of the business, that you can use data for decision making, and that you can articulate a clear learning vision so that you’re really, uh, building that momentum around  that learning vision.

And to that end executive presence and influence are also very critical at this level. So, senior L&D leaders need to be able to demonstrate confidence, and they need to be really clear in the way that they communicate, and they have to be able to navigate organizational politics so that they can negotiate priorities and build those strong relationships that will help them advocate for the role of learning in the organization.

At this level, there’s also a financial component. So executive L&D professionals are managing budgets and they’re evaluating resource investments. They’re looking to balance    risk and opportunity. Um, so that really makes, uh, makes this important focus on understanding not only how the learning function actually runs, but what those costs are associated with the processes, with the operations, with the technologies, and really setting that vendor strategy.

And the final competency that I will highlight here is, uh, change leadership. So in L&D we often find ourselves amidst, uh, change within the organization, whether it be cultural or organizational. Um, it’s really important that at this executive level, L&D professionals are able to guide people through this change that they’re able to, uh, drive L&D programs that are going to strengthen resilience. And that they’re able to build alignment around that new direction. Again, kind of going back to that executive presence and influence. So each of these competencies really combine together to create that executive level role.

Sarah Gallo: Yeah, those are all super important. I think kind of the good news is, like you mentioned, if you have that background in training management, you almost have this like foundation, right? To build upon that and build these skills. But some of these skills like credibility and confidence can be a little ambiguous, right? In terms of what they actually look like. So I’d love if you can share some advice or tips on how to actively develop or demonstrate these capabilities and kind of what that looks like in practice.

Amy DuVernet: Yeah. Yeah, that’s great. I mean, listen, there really isn’t a single pathway for this role, and the reality is that many people, uh, only start developing these executive capabilities they’ve already stepped into that position. So that can make that transition into the executive level a lot harder than it really needs to be.

So in terms of how do we, how do we prepare ourselves if  we know that this is our career path that we want to pursue? I’d say look for projects that connect you directly to the business. Uh, partner with your finance team on forecasting, partner with operations so that you can address performance gaps. Find ways that you can get to those areas where the decisions are being made and start looking at how you might be able to influence them. Because those experiences really do carry a lot of weight in terms of being able to translate those at the executive level.

Um, another thing that I think is really important if you’re preparing yourself for this level is to start practicing speaking in terms of business outcomes. So when we talk about learning, we often get really into the nitty gritty of learning  principles and learning theory. And, instead, when we get to this, next executive level, it’s really important to be able to frame things in terms of productivity, retention, customer experience. So being able to really start practicing shifting that language can be a strong signal of your executive    readiness.

Um, another thing that I would suggest is investing in relationships. So executive roles are less about delivering programs, they’re more about aligning people around a direction. So spend time understanding the priorities and pressures of the other business leaders in your organization so that you can build that credibility. Um, and also so that you’re gaining that business acumen. That’s going to be really helpful when you get to that level. And then finally, I would encourage you to seek out opportunities to lead change. Um, so we talked about change leadership being a really important competency at this level. Um, when you see your organization introducing change, whether that’s a new technology or maybe redesigning onboarding. Maybe there’s a cultural shift and put your hand up. See if you can get involved in that change management initiative because those experiences are going to help you to really develop skills to demonstrate vision, to practice influence, and really get get experience building and bringing people together along those change journeys.

Uh, the final thing that I’ll add is  that you don’t have to get all of these experiences within your organization. Um, there are volunteer opportunities, uh, leadership roles within professional associations. Also targeted coursework or certifications can help to broaden your perspective and help you kind of shift into that executive mindset.

Michelle Eggleston Schwartz: I love that. Um, what role do you see, um, certifications and other professional development programs playing in helping L&D leaders advance their careers and get to that next stage.

Amy DuVernet: I love  that question because I think certifications can be a great signal of competency and capability. And so they do play a really great role in terms of validating your readiness for particular job roles. I will say that at the senior level, it’s really important to also gain kind of strategic tools and mindset to operate at that level. Um, so that you’re kind of shifting your mindset to that of a business leader. So I, I’ll give a little plug. That’s actually  why we created our senior L&D program here. So the Training Industry, senior leaders program we saw a real gap. Most people who step into this director or VP role don’t really have the chance to learn things like strategic workforce planning, financial um, stakeholder influence, and how to build a learning vision that’s going to resonate at that executive table. Um, this program is really designed to give leaders a structured way to develop those capabilities and  also connect them with a peer network that will help them through thinking through similar challenges.

But if you’re looking at a certification program or some other kinds of professional development programs to help prepare you for that executive level, whether it be ours or another one, I would recommend that you think about and look at your right program for you. Um, think about whether it’s going to strengthen your business or financial acumen, whether it’s going to build confidence in terms of your ability to communicate at that executive level. Um, is it going to broaden your perspective beyond learning and development? Right?  Because when you get to that level, you probably already have a foundation in learning and development, and you really need to develop those more macro level perspectives of how the organization operates.

And then again, I’ll highlight the importance of your peer network. Um,  in these roles, it can be a little lonely. Um, when you’re at kind of this higher level position you have peers, but they are running other functions and they may not have the same kind of learning challenges that you have. And then when you look to your team, they have learning challenges, but they may not get the way those challenges fit within the broader scope of the organization. So making sure that a program connects you with peers who are kind of in the same scenario can be really helpful to continue your development over time.

Sarah Gallo: I think that’s super important, Amy, and for those who are listening and want to learn more about our program, we will be linking to some more information for that in the show notes for this episode. So make sure to check that out if you are interested in learning more.

Um, but Amy, you mentioned before something that kind of stood out to me was that this    pathway to the CLO role or um, VP role or whatever it may be, is often not linear and there’s lots of roadblocks that learning leaders may face along the way. Um, I’d love to hear if there’s any common career roadblocks that L&D professionals may face when trying to move into these higher-level roles and how can they overcome them?

Amy DuVernet: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, listen, the pathway through L&D generally speaking is not linear. We have so many accidental training professionals who find themselves being really successful. So if you find yourself aspiring to this executive level role, one of the biggest roadblocks that you may encounter is that  this role doesn’t exist within your organization. Um, there isn’t a CLO, there isn’t a VP of learning, and when there isn’t a title like that in your organization, it can feel like an uphill battle. Um, in this case, it is important to advocate for the role itself first. Not just kind of your promotion into the role, but really look at it and frame it as why this role is a strategic need for the organization, whether it’s you or somebody else who fills it. Why does the organization need an executive L&D professional? What will the organization gain if, if that role were created?

Now, even if the role does exist, many L&D professionals are going to struggle to be seen as ready for that role. Um, it may be that they are known for being really great at running L&D programs but they haven’t had the opportunity to demonstrate  that strategic or um, business side of their capabilities. That’s when it really is important to be intentional. So think about being intentional at demonstrating those skill sets when you’re interacting with your stakeholders. When you are in front of senior leaders, make sure you’re emphasizing your strategic thinking and talking through how you’ve gotten to kind of the logical conclusions. How you understand the business and have taken different factors in the business into account. Make sure you’re making your ability to see the broader kind of macro level organizational view, very clear. And so, like I said, be intentional, practice demonstrating those kinds of capabilities. Um, and then make  sure that the work you showcase aligns with the scope of the role you want, right?

So when you’re talking to senior leaders, when you’re talking to the folks who are going to be making those decisions make sure that you highlight what will really demonstrate your capability to move into that role? And again, just be very intentional about what you choose to share.

A third challenge is just really  simply exposure. So in L&D, your work is not always going to put you in the room with senior leaders, and it’s really hard to build credibility and visibility when you’re not getting those conversations and when you’re not getting that face visibility. one way you could overcome that is by seeking cross-functional project. Asking to sit in on various organizational  decision making sessions like talent reviews or strategic planning meetings. Um, like I said earlier, if you can get involved in a change initiative, that can be really helpful to get you some of that visibility. Um, but really think about ways that you can create opportunities to build relationships with leaders who will ultimately be making those decisions and making sure that you’re getting that exposure at that level.

Michelle Eggleston Schwartz: Love that. Thanks for breaking down all of those roadblocks and helping us overcome them. But another challenge we hear a lot about is struggling to connect learning outcomes to business goals. So can you share like, how important is that skill at this level and what are some practical ways that you can help build it?

Amy DuVernet: I mean, this is a common struggle across any role, right? How do we make sure that the training that we’re providing is producing its intended outcome when there are so many different factors that intervene in between training and those kind of business objectives? Um, it is absolutely critical at the senior level, just as it’s important at all levels, but at the senior level, it’s really, really crucial that you’re able to draw a clear line between learning initiatives and business outcomes because it’s really important that you are thinking through where you’re investing resources and making sure that you’re having the best and the biggest impact that you can.

Um, and this is again, a common challenge. L&D leaders often struggle to get metrics or insights that are going to help them clearly demonstrate that impact. Without those metrics, it’s really hard to shape strategy because you don’t know kind of what’s driving impact. It’s also really hard to make the case for investment in other programs. So some  practical ways that you can, uh, work on kind of demonstrating those, those outcomes. Um, start with the business problem. Instead of jumping into a training solution, uh, you want to partner with leaders early. You want to really be understanding what challenges they’re trying to solve, what does success look like for them, and what are the metrics that matter most to those business leaders. So that shifts your conversation away from training activities to business  outcomes and gives you kind of a foundation of understanding before you go into the training solution.

Another thing that I suggest is get really comfortable with data. Most L&D professionals report feeling under prepared when it comes to measuring impact. Um, our research shows that, uh, two thirds of L&D professionals, uh, believe that they’re performing below average when it comes to measuring impact, which is, you know, statistically impossible. Um, but it shows that we all kind of feel a little bit inadequate  in this area.

Now you do not need to be a data scientist to demonstrate impact. First you want to start by understanding what performance metrics exist in your organization. Um, you want to understand what they mean and what are the caveats what are the different factors that could impact them? And then you want to think about how learning could influence them. So really drawing and mapping out that that influence. Um, but yeah, anything you can do to get yourself a little bit more comfortable with data in your metrics is going to really help.

Another thing that you can  do is start practicing telling the story in business language.  So we often fall back on our learning jargon, and that can be a barrier to being able to demonstrate impact if, uh, our other Senior executives don’t understand that jargon. So think about framing your work in terms of business outcomes. As I said earlier, you know, thinking about productivity, retention quality, uh, customer experience, things that are business outcomes and business priorities. How can we weave those into the story that we’re telling about learning impact?

Another thing you can do is collaborate cross-functionally. So the more you’re working with all of the various kinds of functions, the better you are at understanding the metrics that matter to them and how we can have an impact on them. So you’re naturally getting able to get exposed to how learning contributes to their goals because you’re spending more time in their area. So it really is very important to invest that effort in those cross-functional relationships and making sure that you really understand what’s happening in various parts of the business.

At the executive level, it really isn’t just about evaluating learning, it’s about thinking like a business leader. So you really do also have to shift that mindset to be thinking about how do I demonstrate the impact? And how does that kind of map throughout all of the ways that the organization operates.

Sarah Gallo: Yeah, I love everything you mentioned around those relationships and also that you don’t have to be a data scientist to, to get started here, right? You really can take these, these small steps to show impact and just speaking the language of the business, those  are all also critical.

Um, I want to make sure we’re also offering some advice for our listeners who maybe are in the middle of a job search or are actively looking for their next role. Do you have any strategies or tips for L&D professionals who are job searching and interviewing for these executive level roles?

Amy DuVernet: Oh  yeah, absolutely. First of all, how exciting for you and good luck in your job hunt. Um, I would say that as you think about going into your interview, it’s really important that you understand the business. Before you get into the interview, make sure you’re researching how the company makes money. Who are their customers, what’s the market like? Is it shifting? And, really start thinking about what challenges they may be facing in the business.

During the conversation or the interview, make sure you’re asking clarifying questions that will reflect back your understanding of what these kinds of areas are. Um, but also that you’re really kind of demonstrating that you’ve done some research and that you’re already thinking like somebody who might sit at that executive table.

I also recommend, and this is true of any interview situation, but um, particularly in this executive level it’s really important that you come prepared with a handful of really strong stories. So think about different activities, different projects, different ways that you’ve had impact in the past, and gather those stories together. Make sure you have at least one story that’s going to show how you led an initiative that  drove meaningful business impact. Um, and make sure that you can really articulate what that challenge was, how you diagnosed, what the problem was what the solution was, and most important, what that impact was.

Make sure you have a story that talks about how you are able to lead people through change. Um, because at this level, it’s really important that you can create that change and that you can lead change in the organization.  So you need to have a story that talks about creating alignment and culture and how you’ve done that through learning and development. A final story that I would recommend that you have available is that you have one that’s around gaining buy-in particularly when there are competing priorities. So how did you navigate different stakeholder priorities? Um, how did you use your influence to negotiate and bring leaders together around the strong vision?

Um, really important that you have those stories kind of very well practiced because they’ll be different questions that come up, but when you’ve very well practiced how to kind of talk through those stories, you’ll be able to make them kind of match with the question that’s being asked.

Another piece of advice when you’re in this interview is that language matters. Um, so I’ve said it a few times I think in this podcast, but leave that jargon behind. Don’t come in there speaking about L&D at in, in a technical way as a leader. And at this level, they understand that you know about learning and development. So very much less important to demonstrate that an LMS means a learning management system, or that you understand what an xAPI means much more important that you’re speaking in business terms.

Finally, the last piece of advice that I give is to come in with a point of view. Um, senior leaders are going to have a perspective and they want peers that can also bring perspective and help shape the conversation. They don’t just want somebody who’s going to execute their, uh, training request. Be ready to  articulate how you see learning having an impact on the business, and how you see it kind of driving that organizational impact.

Michelle Eggleston Schwartz: I love that especially what you noted around storytelling because it is such a big part like rehearsing your story of impact and being able to sell  yourself and the impact that you’ve made in making those connections to those experiences, I think is so important. Um, so before we wrap up today, what’s one practical step our listeners can take to benefit their future career advancement?

Amy DuVernet: Yeah, I gave this some thought. This was a great question because you want to give a piece of advice that everybody can kind of grab onto. Um, I would say schedule a 20-minute conversation this week with a leader outside of L&D ask them one question. And that question is, what’s the biggest challenge your team is trying to solve right now? And then listen, right? Just listen to  what they have to say. This conversation is going to help you start to build those relationships. It’s going to help you start to build business understanding. Just doing this one thing is going to take a little bit of that fear out of doing it in the future, right? Because as you practice this, you’re going to be less and less concerned about what the answer might be, or less and less concerned about whether you’re taking too much of their time. Um, and again, asking these kinds of questions are going to build that strategic awareness that senior roles are going to require.

Sarah Gallo:   I love that. Listening is so important because people want to feel heard. So on that note. Amy, thank you so much for sitting down with us today. Um, how can our listeners get in touch with you after the episode if they’d like to reach out?

Amy DuVernet: Oh, um, yeah, absolutely. I am on LinkedIn. I have an email address: aduvernet@trainingindustry.com. So feel free to connect through various ways. I love hearing from L&D leaders. I want to hear what your career journey is and see if there is anything that we can do at Training Industry to help.

Michelle Eggleston Schwartz: For more career development resources, check out the episode description or visit the show notes on our website: trainingindustry.com/podcast. And don’t forget to rate and review us wherever you tune in to the business of learning. Until next time.